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[+] ballot by Barbara_Baby_Cakes

Yes/No, should President Bush apologize for the reprehensive behavior of those U.S. Troops who violated the rules of the Geneva Convention? There has been confessions by U.S. soldiers who admit to participating in the abuse and gave a number of details of the abuse that took place against Iraqi detainees. Here are some of the alleged abusive acts perpetrated by the U.S. soldiers in questioned: Prisoners were punched, slapped and kicked. In some cases, soldiers jumped on their naked feet.
Male and female detainees were left naked for days at a time. Some were videotaped and photographed, an especially degrading experience for Muslims who regard being photographed as a sin. Some were forcibly arranged in various sexually explicit positions for the photographs.
Naked male prisoners were forced to wear womenÂ’s underwear. Others were forced to perform sexual acts upon themselves while being photographed.
One naked prisoner was forced to stand on a box with a sandbag on his head. Wires were attached to his fingers, toes and penis to simulate electric torture.
A male military police guard had sex with a female prisoner. What is your opinion about President Bush apologizing or not?

No, the President should not apologize.
The soldiers should be made to apologize, they are the ones that disgrace the U.S.
No one should be made to apologize, let the American haters apologize for 9/11, how about that?
U.S. Troops are being tortured and killed everyday, I don't see anyone apologizing for that.
The President should apologize, he is the leader of these soldiers.
What would be the point to apologize? That would be a sign of weakness.
Yes, if we as Americans claim to be peace loving Christians, then, we are bound by God to apologize.
Bush claims to be the C in C - he is to blame
He should apologize for the soldier not...
...pissing in the Iraqis mouth!
He should apologize for everything.
he should apolgize to the world
He should be stripped, leased, hooded,&pissed upon
Sould allARABS apologize too,millons have died
What about Germany saying forgive us to the Jews i
Have Iran and all ARABS do the same thing
Tell ARABS to go to HELL
Yes, but only when Islam apologizes to the world
Peace, brotha...and no rascism
Is the author of this poll retarded?
- He certainly is!!!
Prisoners should be grateful they have their heads
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Yes, he should at least apologize for invading Iraq :)

entered by : Barbara_Baby_Cakes
Submitted on : May 06,2004 2:55:33 pm

COMMENTS
Yes, because were supposedly there to stop that kind of prison torture, especially since there have been no WMD yet! If there are no WMD and we condone prison torture... why are we in Iraq again?

by MO_ [+]

I completely agree with you MO, we should be above such behaviors. I know it has to be difficult for those who are on the frontline and taking alot of crap and still they are expected to maintain the principles of the Geneva Convention, eventhough some of the members on the other side of the fence are not in keeping with those principles. Also, and you know what MO? I don't think any WMD will ever be found and quite frankly, I don't think there were ever any, it was a convenient ploy to invade Iraq, simple as that. How sad, many have died thus far on a lie that brought about death of epic proportion unnecesarily, what an expensive LIE ~ Arrivederci.
Yeah, and clinton should apologize to america for allowing timothy mcveigh to blow up that building in OK. Please, just because something bad happened while he was president doesn't mean he's personally responsible. Americans aren't angels, and we never claimed to be. We are on the whole a decent people, but we have fuckups just like everyone else. The difference is that americans, for the most part, don't tolerate these fuckups, we punish them, because we are a civilized people.

If Bush were to let these soldiers get away with it, and not face prosecution, then he'd owe us all a big fucking apology and he'd rightfully be tossed out of office. Fortunately that's not the case.

how do you compare Clinton and Timothy McVeigh to Bush and the tortured prisoners? Clinton didnt order McVeigh to drive a Ryder truck full of explosives (fertilizer)to Oklahoma City, but Bush DID order Americans to go to war with Iraq and place them in captivity where the majority of the ones in prison are innocent and weeks later released.
You know something Herzog, I respect your your right to give your viewpoint (I may disagree with its context)and as you and many already know, justice was exact against McVeigh for his crime against humanity. However, Clinton did not send McVeigh to blow up the federal building in Ok. Bush however did send U.S. Troops to Iraq on a LIE (WMD) to their deaths, and they continue to die mind you. Subsequently, a group of U.S. soldiers found it necessary to brutalize other human beings (which I might respectfully add, when you cease seeing people as human beings, you will begin to treat them less than, as did those troops did to those detainnes)because their leaders and leaders of other countries have decided to depict muslims as less than human. Now, with all that said, I am not attacking you, I am merely doing as you, expressing my viewpoint with the hopes that maybe, just maybe, people, no matter your political affiliation will begin to see that those soldiers were complete wrong and as their leader, President Bush should step up to the plate and take full responsibility for what those savages did. Yes, I said savages, because had the same offense had been committed against Americans, particular had a female soldier had been raped by an Iragi, he would have been deemed a savage. P.S. and I hope Bush doesn't apologize and is thrown out of office, the lil leprechaun :) Nice chatting with you Herzog.
Herzog, what does the OKC bombing have to do with this ballot. Car bombings are just a little different than Jumbo jets flown into high rise buildings, don't you think? When you have terroristic acts at the level of the WTC bombings, there is much more intelligence information available to act upon. We certainly don't hear much about the Clinton's administrations detouring of the LAX fiasco... and why? Because they stopped it, is it now not news worthy? Why isn't Clinton your hero, he stopped what Bush couldn't/wouldn't. That's neither here nor there on this ballot. The point is when I see a General being bombarded for answers, whom has/had an impeccable record, but is being held accountable for all the Iraqi prisons, I believe it rolls to the top. That being Bush. He has us in Iraq, and he has a responsibility to the front line (which obviously is not you or I) and their safety, don't you think? I guess the bigger question is...Will Bush allow his pride to become the newest and biggest killer of American Soldiers in Iraq?" Which will inevitably happen if nothing is said. So go ahead and believe what you like, but keep in mind, your thinking kills... OUR SOLDIERS... but, if that doesn't matter to you... you do have a right to your own beliefs... protected by the American constitution... and protected by our soldiers... which your way of thinking is killing... gees, you, and yours, really confuse me!
by MO_ [+]

"Clinton didnt order McVeigh to drive a Ryder truck full of explosives (fertilizer)to Oklahoma City"

And Bush ordered the troops to torture the iraqis? I think it is a perfect comparison. Blaming a president for something which they did not support, order, or condone simply because it happened when they were in office is ridiculous.

Well Barb, I appreciate you're civility, and let me clarify my position.

1) you say that mcveigh was punished for his crimes(and rightly so), well so are the soldiers in question.

2) I have never heard anyone is this administration portray muslims as anything less than equals. On the contrary, not a week goes by without someone, usually bush, calling islam the 'religion of peace'. I doubt you could find any examples of bush dehumanizing the iraqis, or arabs/muslims in general.

3) I agree that those soldiers were completely in the wrong, I never once defended them. But that doesn't mean that bush is responsible for their actions.

For Bush to be responsible for this he'd have to be responsible for what every american did under his adminstration. And that is a ridiculous notion, just as ridiculous as blaming clinton for timothy mcveigh.

Mo, I think I pretty much responded to anything you had to say in the first two posts.

Except this, the terrorists trained in the US for years under Clintons watch to carry out 911, sorry but he didn't do a whole lot to stop terrorism.

I'm having a hard time understanding your way of thinking. Comparing McVeigh and Clinton to Bush and War Crimes, doesn't make even a tiny bit of sense to me. Bush ordered troops to war. War is different than an American using terrorism on Americans. Bush is accountable for what these individuals do, as well as all Americans. The point is, an apology is in order and it should be done by Bush. You know the person who spearheaded this conflict... USING HUMANITY AS THE PLATFORM oh yeah, that and WMD! You seem to be a Bush fan and hang on his every word. How many times have you heard him make statements about the inhumane treatment of Iraqi's by Saddam? It's been his biggest plea for war... Now were doing it! Bush of all people should feel humiliated and act like a MAN and stand up to the world and say "YES, a mistake was made, and will be rectified!" Cakes, you'll have to take over from here, these young kids wear me out!
by MO_ [+]

'Bush ordered troops to war. War is different than an American using terrorism on Americans'

Correct so far. But if I may ask something, did he order our troops to abuse pows? Find me a quote where he says something along the lines of 'our soldiers really ought to be torturing those iraqi SOBs" and I'll concede the point. Good luck.

Ok, Herzog, lets just agree that we do disagree regarding the matter, you missed the point entirely. However, please know that YOUR President days are numbered :) I Enjoyed the debate ~ Arrivederci!
. . .and act like a MAN and stand up to the world and say "YES, a mistake was made, and will be rectified!"

What part of 'they are going to be punished' eludes you? Courtmarshal, hello? I know this gets in the way of a wonderful bush-bashing session, but these soldiers are going to be punished, not rewarded, not pushed to the side and ignored, but punished. Kicked out of the military, sent to jail and publicly humiliated. Perhaps if bush were to drag them out into the street and shoot them you'd be content?

Yep, if kerry keeps campaigning the way he is then bush's days in the WH are definately numbered. How many days are there in 4 and half years?
You have missed the point entirely Herzog. However, lets at least agree that we disagree regarding this matter. When YOUR President decided to take sides with Ariel Sharon over the Muslim community, that was an indication that YOUR President agreed with Sharon's policies as it relates to Muslims. The fight between both Israel and Iraq had nothing to do with America. However, YOUR President would have his supporters to believe otherwise. Well, its your choice to believe and it is mine to not. He is a liar, mass murder, druggie, alcoholic, illiterate, can't walk and chew gum at the same time and I don't trust him. Now, with all that said, his days are numbered and election day can not come quick enough, he has been a disgrace not only as a President, but also as a human being :) good chatting with you Herzog ~ Arrivederci!
Several things. One, I didn't care for clinton much, and I sure as hell didn't vote for him, but I never once refered to him as anything else but 'my president'. If you're an american than bush, regardless of how you feel about him, is your president.

Two, Sharon has never been at war with the muslim community, he is at war with a select group of islamic terrorists. Why shouldn't OUR president choose to support one of our allies against a group of terrorists?

Ciao babe.

no Bush should not apologize. He wouldnt mean it when he said it and nobody would believe him anyway.
These soldiers are pieces of shit, if any other country had this many troops in one area at war, this same stuff would happen, it is not isolated to American troops. Anyway, these troops are shit, GW is shit and this war is shit. And my feet smell like shit.

Unfortunately, dirtyassfeet, you're probably right about not meaning it, or people believing it thing. Herzog, I guess my point with our debate is, with McVeigh he was acting independently or with a small group unaffiliated with our government. With the soldiers in Iraq, it's a chain of command that carries all the way to the top brass of the military, that reports directly to the Oval office. For instance, if an entry level $8 an hour employee committed some heinous acts, and it made it to the press, you better believe these acts will jump directly to the CEO, who will handle the PR work and rumor control.
by MO_ [+]

Unfortunately, dirtyassfeet, you're probably right about not meaning it, or people believing it thing. Herzog, I guess my point with our debate is, with McVeigh, he was acting independently or with a small group unaffiliated with our government. With the soldiers in Iraq, it's a chain of command that carries all the way to the top brass of the military, that reports directly to the Oval office. For instance, if an entry level $8 an hour employee committed some heinous acts, and it made it to the press, you better believe these acts will jump directly to the CEO, who will handle PR and rumor control.
by MO_ [+]

Unfortunately, dirtyassfeet, you're probably right about not meaning it, or people believing it thing. Herzog, I guess my point with our debate is, with McVeigh, he was acting independently or with a small group unaffiliated with our government. With the soldiers in Iraq, it's a chain of command that carries all the way to the top brass of the military, that reports directly to the Oval office. For instance, if an entry level $8 an hour employee committed some heinous acts, and it made it to the press, you better believe these acts will jump directly to the CEO, who will handle PR and rumor control.
by MO_ [+]

No need to repeat yourself.
The system was acting up yesterday afternoon, that's why it's in triplicate.
by MO_ [+]

NO NO NO NO, he shouldnt go on national television and apoligize for that stupid ass shit those guys did, FUCK NO!!! If anything he should go to saddams cell and slap the FUCK out of him :}
Bush should apologize for invading Iraq in the first place.
Yes, he should at least apologize for invading Iraq :)
SPLASH! Ok guys, that was me jumping in and probably getting over my head here. I think everyone has the right to their opinion and if it wasn't for this country and the wars we have fought, we wouldn't have that right. However, torturing anyone or anything is wrong. No matter which side they are on, it is unacceptable. So, while I don't hold President Bush responsible in the sense that he should personally apologize, I do think he needs to stand up and let people everywhere know that the US does not condone such behavior from anyone else and especially from our own. Human rights are human rights, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican. I also think the war in Iraq was about a great deal more than weapons of mass destruction. In my opinion, had they not been there when we invaded, it certainly would have been a matter of time until he did have them and was suppling the terrorists with God knows what. He was murdering entire villages of innocent people, not to mention members of his own family. He needed to be removed. As for what we're doing there now, I don't know. We need to get these people set up and get the heck out. I'm probably going to get blasted for my ideas and that's ok because that's what this site is all about but I don't think blaming one man, even the president, for everything that has happened in this war is going to solve anything. He needs to acknowledge that it happended, assure us that it will not continue and take action to see that it doesn't. Then get the heck out of Iraq! (covering my head from the blasts now)
By the way, have you seen my new squirrels?
Tadema. That argument is so tired now. Do you not know that current members of Bush's government were advocating invading Iraq years before 9/11. Specifically Perle and Wolfowitz. Secondly human rights abuses of the sort that occurred in Iraq go on all around the world and the US does not invade and start killing and torturing innocents.
I know and there are so many different ways to debate the issue. It really is a no win situation for Bush. Had he not gone to war, he would have been spineless and weak and his agenda would have been picked apart as well. He does go to war and he's evil and doesn't care about human life...I think any man who had been the president at that time would have ended up under the gun. (no pun intended) OK, back to your debate. I'll go back to the squirrels now.
Hey Tadema, he is spineless and weak whether this country went to war or not :) Now back to the squirrels, I am on my way to take a gander...
Yeah because, after all, the squirrels are what it's all about anyway!
Shhhuuuttt up Tadema, and get back over to your animation ballots! She jumped in, quick someone hold her under! Aahahahah, just kidding. I agree with most of what you say. I don't think GW should apologize because of his participation and support of the war, I think GW should apologize because he holds the highest office in the land, if not the world. This situation needs to be addressed from the top, in a manner that will reassure the Arab world, not just Iraq, of our intentions there and our beliefs that this treatment was wrong. Don't get me wrong, I think Bush is a putz, but I would expect this apology from absolutely anyone in the oval office when this happened, even Clinton!
by MO_ [+]

I don't see a Squirrel!
by MO_ [+]

You can't see the three squirrels on my user page? Bummer. I agree with you Mo...I'm better off on the squirrel polls anyway..what was I thinking? Going back to the nonconfuntational ballots..tra la la la la...
Now that Bush has apologised does anybody think that the situation out there will get better? I predict that it will continue to get worse. Bush is a demon of destruction and a liar.
He is a dork and his days are numbered to say the least. I totally agree with your assessment cretin_slap :)
the terrorists should apologize for killing innocent journalists and contractors as well.
You are a waste of flesh and bones. If subversives like you existed during WWII you would have been arrested for sedition, your community would have shunned you, not to mention we would be speaking German, you dunce. Are you aware people in the military have ears and eyes, they read and hear this filth. This is not about Bush this is about the well being of our young men and women who's lives are on the line, but you wouldn't know anything about that because you risk nothing by typing up your little bullshit survey. Obviously you have pledged your allegiance to enemy combatants and terrorist vermin. If putting panties on heads, beating, sodomizing, embarrassing, torturing, and in some instances killing these prisoners, provided any intelligence that saved even one American life, then I say bravo, right on, put sticks of dynamite up prisoners ass and threaten to light if you have to. This is war, there is truth in the old saying "war is hell" the sooner we all realize this the quicker we can achieve victory. I know a little about the Geneva Convention, because I was in the military myself, and it applies only to uniformed combatants, not a bunch of rag tag guerillas. When you write garbage like this you provide aid and comfort to the enemy, you attempt to erode the resolve of the American people, which in turn affects the troops morale. Ted Kennedy tells you what a travesty this incident is, but you don't see his motivation, the prisoners are just victims of Rummy and the evil emperor G.W.. Now that I've shot my wad feel free to post your rebuttal as I am sure your opinion will remain the same.
sorry forgot to sign in again for above entry,
as i said on my ballot, we can't blame millions for actions taken by a few.

Believe me.I am so disgusted with those soldiers.Personally I want death penalty on them.But again I have to be logical about this kinda matter.I agree with Herzog.
Herzog:

"If Bush were to let these soldiers get away with it, and not face prosecution, then he'd owe us all a big fucking apology and he'd rightfully be tossed out of office."

LOL. Like that would ever happen. Americans don't care what happens to other nations. They just want a running economy and screw everything else. Plus, what those soldiers did would usually be punished by death in a lot of areas. Even if he did apologize, no Muslim would give a rat's ass about his apology. He invaded Iraq, and he knew what POW's suffer.

Fuck the Iraqis. They're the new Japs.
They'll shake our hand and fuck us at the same time.

Well, you'd be used to fucking a shaking hand - wouldn't you, FireGhost?
NO, there still alive aren't they. An MAerican detainee would be killed on the spot. Besides the Iraq's are recieving the better treatment then convicts in prisons in the states.
If you care about our own POWs, you should care about the torture of Iraqi prisoners. What our soldiers did may not have compared to what is done to their hostages, but does that make it right? The more we do the stuff they do, the more legitimate it becomes and the less the world community cares about the treatment of any prisoner - and who pays? Any soldier of any country who is taken prisoner - including American soldiers.

Just because the enemy does something evil, doesn't mean that doing something a little less evil is okay. Evil is evil. Do you want to be like them, or do you want to establish human rights and democracy around the world?

One of the things Bush supporters harp on is - "okay, there were no WMD's, no link between Saddam and Al Qaeda, but we freed an oppressed people" - well if we toture them, then we've just replaced one kind of oppression with another...

You know, I agree with many people here; I don't remember the Arabs apologizing for their terrorist acts, and for their abuse of Our Soldiers. We didn't start this war, THEY DID. No, Bush did NOT start it!
I say, fuck em'. At least they weren't assraped, which is what happens in US prison on a daily basis. Send em' to OZ and let them take care of em'.
Yes bush is GAY!!!!!!!





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