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religion :
[+] serious ballot by herzog

That all these attacks are carried out by people calling themselves muslims? I know the line, they're not real muslims, they're just the fringe, they don't represent islam. But isn't it kinda odd that only islam seems to be producing these people in great number? You'll get the odd christian or jewish terrorist, but by and large the vast majority are muslim. Why is this, considering they in no way reflect their religion. Many regions and religions are poor and downtrodden, so that's not it. Many have faced aggression from more advanced nations, so that's not it. So what is it?

There's something in the relgion that leads to these attacks
Nothing, it's just a huge coincidence they all happen to be muslim
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herz: It is not true that we have done nothing since 9/11 ... we have persistently been shooting ourselves in the foot and making the situation worse. We need to recognize the changed nature of the enemy and stop trying to treat every problem like a nail, just because we have the biggest hammer in the world.

entered by : Cathexis
Submitted on : Jul 12,2005 1:06:01 pm

COMMENTS
ut-oh. this is gonna be a good one! brave man herzog, thats why i like you. not sure of the answer other than it does seem that some of the clerics are taking advantage of the anger that exists in some elements of people of the muslim faith. i think some of the clerics take advantage of this and create the terrorists by using fear, anger and hateful words. i'm keeping my eye on this ballot.


What string are you referring to?
String as in the past 5-10 years. There have been quite a few.
Well, I think it would be unfair to say "Akmed is a muslim, so he is a terrorist." In other words, there is not an automatic correlation. There are some terrorist muslims as well as innocent. That being said, the problem appears to be much greater than we are led to believe by the average media entity. There are an estimated 15 THOUSAND muslim Bin Laden supporters in the UK alone, according to CNN. I have heard numerous mid-east and terror experts state that venemous, jihadist rhetoric is common is many mosques in both the US and UK, among others. To sum it up, there are innocent and guilty muslims, but the problem is significantly larger that the average media entity leads us to believe. Again, political correctness at its worst.
I think a lot of it has to do with the leaders of the many arab countries being filthy rich while other highly educated citizens cannot find jobs. That can breed rage in people.
In my opinion, I think this is also a race issue as well as religion. Do you think if we all converted to Islam we'd get along with Arabs? No, because we're white(the majority of us.) I also have noticed that not to many European or American muslims are condeming these attacks witch make me wonder.
'I think a lot of it has to do with the leaders of the many arab countries being filthy rich while other highly educated citizens cannot find jobs. That can breed rage in people.'

That also represents the majority of nations on earth, but only the muslim ones are producing terrorists, why is that?

So what's the end-game here, that islam breeds terrorism? Acting under the assumption that that's true, what should we do?
herzog: No one said there are no associations. However, it has been repeatedly stated that it is a fundamental Logic error to take that and generalize in the way you do.

For example:

Observation: Most rabies attacks are due to raccoons.

Erroneous conclusion: Kill all raccoons and we will have no more rabies.

Your "solutions", besides being unprincipled, are unfeasible. Do you believe you can segment off swathes of society in any way? Do you truly believe that this would isolate the problem and it wouldn't sprout up elsewhere?

I do not.

Right cath, find where I said we should kill all muslims. A more rational analogy would be; most rabies comes from raccoons, so if you're out in the woods take extra precaution to avoid raccoons and immediately report any that are showing these symptoms. But of course that would be unfairly discriminating against the raccoons, so more people should have to die so we don't stereotype any particular woodland creature and hurt it's feelings, afterall it's not their fault they were born a raccoon. This is what you are suggesting, this will cause the west to lose this war.
Cath: hypothetical situation. If there were no muslims in the US, none whatsoever. And they weren't allowed in under any circumstances, would 911 have happened?
I think that there is a "triumphalistic" nature to Islam, just as there once was to Christianity that causes mischief. In other words, Islam's main cultural transmitter, at least in its earliest centuries, was through an onslaught of military conquests, much more so than even Christianity. Within just a few decades of the death of Muhammad, we see the vast Muslim armies sweep throughout the Byzantine Empire, the Sassanid Empire (Persia), and onto the borders of India. While Muslim apologists like to say that many of the inhabitants of these regions welcomed these Arab forces due to their policies of religious toleration, this position is contradicted by the chroniclers of the Eastern Orthodox Church (particularly several Coptic ones), by Byzantine historians, and by the archaeological and numismatic evidence in Persia (Iran). In the centuries that followed, while Islam was indeed spread through peaceful means in Southeast Asia and other regions, it was again brought with ferocity to Hindu India, to the Iberian Peninsula, to the Balkans, to the Mediterranean, and a number of other regions.

Once the Enlightenment gained sway in the West, there were authors such as Voltaire who might ask, "Are not even Turks my brothers?" However, that was virtually never the case in the Muslim world, where Islam held all political power, where non-Muslims were second-class citizens at best with limited civil rights, and where separation of mosque and state was heresy, or fatal apostasy for any who suggested it.

While the 20th century saw several secularized Muslim governments, the basic issues and this underlying intolerance never really went away. So, while there are certainly millions of Muslims who are comfortable with a secular government, there are millions more who are not, and they sometimes resort to drastic measures in their drive for holiness.

herz: Hypothetical situation -- if you and I were the only people in the country, would 9/11 have happened? That is about as reasonable a question.

1) It is unethical, unprincipled, and extreme overkill to blame an entire people for the actions of a handful.

2) What do you think the repercussions of such a move (even if it were possible) would be? What would happen with the alienated people? Would they be our friends? Or would you have, in one fell swoop, increased animosity towards us by orders of magnitude?

Our best efforts have to be in isolating the extremists -- cutting off the recruitment, funds, and support. We will not do this by trying to cut off all Muslims.

Doing as you advocate is the same mistake Bush has persisted in making -- it is a cathartic knee-jerk reaction that ultimately makes the situation worse.

'1) It is unethical, unprincipled, and extreme overkill to blame an entire people for the actions of a handful.'

Unless of course the majority of that population doesn't do a damn thing to help. Muslims in the US didn't seem to have trouble coming to the press demanding they be treated as equals, nor did they have problem finding a way to broadcast the 'fact' that we deserved it for our foreign policy, you know the line '911 was tragic and all, but . . .'. And yet they never managed to find a way to get out the message in any definitive terms that terrorism is bad. Kinda shows where their priorities are.


'2) What do you think the repercussions of such a move (even if it were possible) would be? What would happen with the alienated people? Would they be our friends? Or would you have, in one fell swoop, increased animosity towards us by orders of magnitude?'

Like the japanese americans who spent the next few decades after wwII killing americans as retribution for their internment? That never happened. Something else that never happened, attacks in the US by japanese citizens. It's all politically incorrect to say but the fact is there were japanese americans who tried to carry out attacks against the US, and others who are documented as saying they would have. And they weren't entirely dependent on individual citizens carrying out attacks, they had an army and navy and were still willing to give their lives to kill americans in support of their beliefs, sound familiar?

'Our best efforts have to be in isolating the extremists -- cutting off the recruitment, funds, and support. We will not do this by trying to cut off all Muslims.'

Not all, just the ones who refuse to do anything about the problem.

'Doing as you advocate is the same mistake Bush has persisted in making -- it is a cathartic knee-jerk reaction that ultimately makes the situation worse.'

Well we've done nothing since 911, has that made the situation better?

herz: It is not true that we have done nothing since 9/11 ... we have persistently been shooting ourselves in the foot and making the situation worse.

We need to recognize the changed nature of the enemy and stop trying to treat every problem like a nail, just because we have the biggest hammer in the world.

well, at last the people of the UK have woken up. PM Blair has finally brought forward the truth. That these acts are carried out under the inspiration of an evil religious idealogy. Sales of the quran have shot through the roof in the west, as civilized people everywhere are now at last going to see the frightening facts for themselves.





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