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[+] serious ballot by Cathexis

[TOPIC: Science/ Philosophy]

Everyone tends to take for granted that the phenomenon known as Cause and Effect is a law for our reality. Most of our observations and thinking are premised on this concept. And yet ... do we not have proof that Cause and Effect has not always existed?

Let's look at the start of our reality ...

Scientists: At some point, is it not true that *something had to come from nothing* or that *something had to always exist?* Thus ... whatever we started with was not caused (or else, what caused the predecessor to exist)?

Creationists: Does not the same hold true of God, if you believe he always existed?

I Agree: Cause and Effect is not an immutable law
I Disagree: Cause and Effect *is* an immutable law
Other (comment)

Ballot #59454 : SEE RESULTS

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Everything has to come from something. Since you could go back in time an infinite amount of time and not reach the beginning that means their is no beginning, no middle, no end...
Cathexis, what the heck time do you get up in the morning and how much coffee have you had. I'm still sitting here in a complete fog and now I've got to go find my damned dictionary. *grumble..moan..bitch*
Well, I had the same problem trying to proove God exist. In eighter case, you have to asume an uncaused existens: an uncaused God (that's obviouse, God can't "be made" by something else) or the uncaused existence of matter. However, I believe that in our univers everything is "obeying" time. So it must be a link between "cause and effect" and time. In the absence of time, "cause and effect" law is no longer necessary. And since matter apeares (at least!) to be "subjected" to time, the only uncaused existence must be God. If we presume an uncaused existence of matter, we have to asume an "non-time" "period" (sic!). But that means matter can exist out of time, or the that matter was produced, in that non-time "period" from something else. So anyway, in both cases matter must be produced by something and is subjected to time (so in this univers,"cause and effect" is an immutable law, to answer your Q). And pls, I have a question to someone who knows some physics : energie needs time in order to exist? Anyway this is a great question. Some karma coming up! I hope my english didn't betray me. Again! :--)

Boy, this is a lot of thinking for a Sunday morning!

Johan - per Einstein: to find the energy, you multiply the mass by the square of the speed of light, so I would say time is involved.

If I think about something simple, like lined up dominoes, the second one falls because the first one knocks against it, and they keep going. But something has to knock the first one, for Creationists, this would be God. For scientists, this is the Big Bang. But what made it Bang? Creationists say God. But maybe exestence is a moeus strip, thus the last domino knocks over the first one...

I think I need another cup of coffee!

Oh boy, let me correct myself - existence and moebus. Now, about that coffee....
In recent discoveries, certain sub-atomic articles have been observed to exit an atomic nucleus before they enter. Cause and effect are pretty much out the window, given other researches into multiversal theory.
This sounds like an lsd inspired ballot.
No, he just provides the site. ;-)
Thanks for the info HBinVegas. I've realised that last night. I think "God exist IV" is coming up in a few weeks. :--)

Cause and effect is only an explanation for action not existence if you ask me.
I perceive no forseeable first cause or final effect.

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