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[+] ballot by zig

I just took a look at ballot 68707...

OK, before all you fully paid up members of the NRA come looking for me wearing fatigues, let me say that I am NOT opposed to guns, but I can't see the appeal of killing wild animals for any reason unless maybe you're starving to death.

If I was forced to live out in the wilds and live off the land, I'd be the first to track and hunt if my family was starving, but not otherwise.

I just can't understand the appeal of hunting for its own sake. What's the real reason for hunting these days?

They are manly men and hunting is a 'man thing'
They are girly men who want to be manly men
Ungawa-UG - They're neanderthal throwbacks
Too much testosterone flooding their systems
There's nothing wrong with hunting (explain)
They live in a fantasy world
They admire Ted Nugent and almost always vote Republican
They are out of touch with the harmony of nature
It's their 'God Given' right
Not sure
Dominance issues
Tired Ballot
Tradition+ FamilyTime+ Meditation+Respect 4 Nature
Like all sports... IT'S FUN
it's a skill
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I hunt infidels
I know the argument exists that herds have to be culled to keep down the population, but to me that's an excuse, not a reason. Nature has managed to balance itself for millions of years without the intervention of man, so that argument doesn't hold water with me. One brutal winter will take care of the sick, the weak and the dying and ensure the survival of the fittest.
by zig [+]

I thought you said 'nerds' instead of herds haha

by zig [+]

Psssttt.... Guys, don't rate this ballot down (like the user Toxacated did) just because you disagree with the ballot question. It tends to confirm my suspicion that hunters are generally a bit lacking in intellect. Debate me instead and please keep your sense of humor, too. Lighten up! I don't hate hunters as people, just hunting for the sake of it.
by zig [+]

I agree with you zig, I do not know why people enjoy killing, for no reason, guess same reason people hate for no reason
also same reason people judge without knowing the facts
Population control is a great reason to hunt. Better a quick death than a slow one. Also, I don't see anything wrong with hunting for food. It's a much more humane death than any of the animals you find in the supermarket receive. And in all fairness there are WOMEN who like to hunt too.
I didn't vote this ballot down, I voted down your choice on mine because it was a comment.
P.S. So your saying you would rather see them starve and die a long and painfull death?
Well okay then... but I saw it as a choice.
by zig [+]

Cold doesn't cause a long and painful death. It generally numbs, then causes a state of uunconsciousness as the animal loses strength and goes into hypothermia and dehydration. Left alone, nature takes care of everything. I believe that, anyway.
by zig [+]

Points taken Inspectah_Deck. I just can't see the attraction though, and see it less of a necessity and more of a pastime for some. True what you said though about the reality of how animals destined for supermarket shelves live and die. That too is hellish, to me.
by zig [+]

it is zig more of a past time for many people, they do not do it to stop hunger of the animals or to thin the heard, look at the africa, if goverments did not step in, there would not be an elephant left on the planet. Some people hunt just for the sake of the trophy
I'm afraid you might be right on target, Larry.
Some hunters seem to prize the killing of a healthy buck more than they would a diseased or decrepit specimen. I'm thinking of all the antlers I've seen hung on walls all over the place.
by zig [+]

And you're right about the elephants in Africa. They are under constant pressure from hunters and poachers.
by zig [+]

The cold isn't what kills them. It is them starving because there is nothing for them to eat and that is slow and painfull. You're also right, I don't hunt to help keep the population down. I hunt because I like it and deer meat taste good. That still doesn't mean it doesn't help controll the population.
Healthy deer can usually withstand starvation for weeks, having stored up enough body fat to see them through winter. But a combination of cold, starvation and dehydration will kill old or sick deer very quickly.

by zig [+]

I'm not about to judge you as a person Toxacated. It's your choice, but I just can't understand your choice. Why kill when you don't have to?
by zig [+]

I have seen what toxacated is talking about with reguards to a starving population.Anybody who has traveled rt 90 across NY has probably seen alot of starving deer alongside the highway as well as alot of the skin and bone carcasses on the roadside.Both the deer suffer and the meat goes to waste.
IMO, all of the rationalizations about balancing populations and such are usually just that ... rationalizations.

That being said, I can see the appeal of hunting. I'll confess ... when I'm blasting zombies in a computer game, I am not thinking of balancing the populations of the undead ... I am in a primal situation where I am pitting my skills against those of some foe and probably working through some hardwired dominance thing.

Deep down, I find I do like the idea of hunting and pitting my skills against unknown rivals; it has a strong attraction. However, I do not like the idea of hurting or killing animals; thus awareness of the aftermath has led me to regard the activity in a broader sense and pass on pursuing, myself.

I can also see engaging in the sport for food, although in our modern day, this is clearly not the primary reason we do it.

First thing I want to say is that hunting is not about killing at all. If I could shoot the animal with a little birth control dart, I would do that instead. You must understand the concepts of carrying capacities and property damage to appreciate what hunters do. Deer in particular cause hundreds of millions of dollars in damages every year. Crop damage and car damage from accidents mostly. Take for example where I hunt in Wisconsin. During the gun season over 300,000 deer are harvested. Imagine if these deer were left to breed. Numbers across the state would be intolerable. Car collisions and crop damage would be enormous. There's really no other way to keep populations under control I'm afraid. Birth control would cause millions if not billions on this scale. If you let nature take its course, you have millions of deer nationwide starving to death or being hit by cars or freezing to death. Not to mention the rate of communicable diseases in the deer would skyrocket- chronic wasting disease for example would run rampant across the midwest.
----- ------- ----- -------- ------
Also, it's tradition in many families. It goes far beyond killing. When I hunt, I quite frankly don't give a shit if I shoot anything. My favorite part of the day is coming back to the cabin to a warm pot of chili and sharing my stories of the day with the guys-uncles, cousins, dad, grandpa, friends... Some of these guys I barely even see 3 or 4 times a year.
------- -------- ------------ ---
On the deerstand, you have to be quiet. Motionless. Observant. Alert. You have a lot of time to think. It's almost like meditation. It's not about shooting something. It's about getting away from stress, schooling, jobs, hard times etc.

You have your yoga, I have my hunting. People get too caught up in the killing aspect. It's not about that.
I have my yoga? LOL... I don't do yoga. I'm all for de-stressing and meditation, though, but why take it out on wild animals if it 'isn't about killing'? Why not play a videogame, go for a drive, play some music or take up freakin' golf...? If hunting is all about chilling out with the guys, there are numerous other ways to go achieve that relaxed state of mind other than killing.

And as for a huge population explosion in deer herds... Who were there first, the people or the deer? A lot of the time deer overpopulation occurs because their habitat is ever-shrinking and they are forced closer and closer to their worst nemesis: Man.
The woods would become pretty crowded too, with humans, if that was our only choice of residence.
by zig [+]

There is nothing wrong with hunting. It is important to control the populations of wild animals.
And I say bollocks to that argument. It's an excuse, not a reason.
by zig [+]

Wild animals, deer in particular, destroy farmland. In many countries, the population is booming. That is why many countries require hunters to tag a doe before killing a buck to ensure better herd management. Over the past century, habitat types had declined considerably, leaving less room for these animals which is why so many people are nailing them with their cars.
Studies have shown that farm owners who both hunt and run pheasant shoots conserve the most woodland cover. This is important because every time a housing development goes up wild animals have less and less room, so if we don't lessen their numbers, they will destory our wetlands as well as cause these animals with excessive herd numbers to starve to death(which is a horrible way to die)

theres your reason
Nobody and nothing destroys our environment quicker than we ourselves do.. And those farmers who organize pheasant shoots are in it for the money, not because they care about nature conservation.
Wildlife on federal land has the best chance of natural equilibrium, far away from people and their destructive interference. Futhermore, WE are entirely responsible for the mess of the environment, far more so than the deer. We are on their land, not the other way around.
by zig [+]

Why do we choose to hunt though? Maybe primitive instinct? I love being out in nature,, im sure some activists would say that hunting is just about “killing”, but all hunters don't do it just to kill stuff. To me, it’s about enjoying every aspect of God’s great outdoors, and get away from the crazy fast-paced lifestyle.
I bet no one understands and respects the beauty of the great outdoors as much as a hunter
It's the same reason i love fishing. Its very peaceful and I usually always throw the fish back, unless im in the mood for a delicious trout dinner of course : )
I was born and raised in Scotland, where hunting is big business, so I'm a country girl at heart. I love the countryside and everything in it. I just could never kill anything unless I was literally starving to death because it would be a huge betrayal to me. Why kill what you love? I enjoy it the way it is, so the only shooting I ever hope to do is with a camera.
by zig [+]

Like Nate said, sharing the stories with friends, family and the guys you hang out with at your country club while throwin back a few cold ones is great (even though they won't let me drink yet since im 20).

And meat just tastes better when you know you earned it yourself.

I like wildlife photography too. And I too believe that humans are a disgusting and destructive breed. But hey, if people want me to stop hunting, that's cool. I'll let them photograph their new diseased and emaciated deer. It's primal ZIG. It's in our blood, it's a passion, just as much as mojo loves painting, shanny loves alternative music, smeegol loves the's part of who we are. It needs no justification and I do not expect anyone to understand it. Just realize it's a very big part of some people's lives, robed in tradition, respect, and admiration for the animals. And yes, I'm sure that sounds contradictory to those who don't know better. That's okay with me.
And if you're not a vegetarian ZIG, I gotta offense. I just am blown away by people who accept slaughterhouse animals from a store and then denounce hunting where the kills are clean and much respect is paid to the animals.
Go read The Jungle. You'll come running to buy my venison.
I do agree with you about modern slaughter techniques... horrendous.
by zig [+]

Theyre relieving the frustration that the unnatural confines of modern life create. We shouldnt be sitting on our fat arses in an office 24/7, being depressed and bored. Then go home to our ugly wife and unbearable spoilt little brats we raised as our kids. Men should be out hunting and getting adrenaline rushes. We are bilogically very much still animals, we just like to kid ourselves we are something more
Correction: if my family *was* starving and desperate.
by zig [+]

You know what King Alfie? You might have a point there. Men always seem to want a challenge, so maybe they could take up target practice instead... Better still, get laid. :)
by zig [+]

yes. Tghe idel scenario would be for these men to hunt EACH OTHER, thus it would be a self correcting problem. The ones that hadnt been hunted would have spent their energy, and all the cuddly forest animals could go on with looking cute and huggable :)

I appreciate your disagreement but some of those ballot choices are a bit harsh. I notice that there's no positive choices. Especially the "out of touch with nature" one. Hunters are the most IN touch with nature people on earth. When you sit in a tree for ten hours, for 9 days in a row, you understand nature. BELIEVE ME.
I made this ballot in a spirit of bewilderment, and they were genuine questions running through my brain at the time, but please go ahead and add some more choices if you think they're a bit biased.
by zig [+]

I am totally against hunting that's why I eat veal. :)
I'm really rather vicious once you get to know me. Raaar
Nate: If you really love and respect nature so much, how can you look it in the eyes and blast its life-blood away?
by zig [+]

I just couldn't do it unless I absolutely had to.
by zig [+]

Rather that than watch it die slowly of disease and starvation
They would do just fine without us.
by zig [+]

Sport? It won't be a sport until the hunted have weapons that level the playing field. Until that happens it's just people killing animals for fun.
BTW, that was just my humble opinion.
ZIG: I'm sorry. I quite honestly will not answer that question you just asked me. I don't mean to be rude but I just think it's a very ignorant question. One must understand the cycle of life and our place in it. Our place is not to sit idly by and let nature run independently of us. WE ARE part of mother nature. WE ARE part of the this world WITH nature. Partaking in the cycle is just...natural. In fact, I find it unnatural to ignore the cycle. It seems the majority of you have never even experienced nature in its fullest. You seem to ignore that life and death are innate parts of life. You seem to ignore that just inasmuch as the life of my deer has been taken, so has the carrot whose roots you have cleaned and scraped. The carrot will never live again. Never. Never. It's dead, and it's dead because you killed it. We eat the deer because humans are omnivores. Other humans eat meat that is from poorly treated animals. Do you attack people in the supermarket for buying their celophane wrapped flank steak? No, you don't. You should. Those who buy all of their meat are completely detached from the cycle. Those in the supermarket do not fully appreciate the nature. They don't appreciate the animals. They don't appreciate life. I, and other hunters, sit amongst nature. We see the hawk swoop down to claim his mouse. The mouse had no defenses other than brilliantly adapted hearing and cunning. The mouse is part of the cycle. Just as much as the deer I have spent hours at the target range and hours in the field scouting to prepare for its harvest. The animal is equipped with cunning. Stealth. Knowledge. Superb senses. I am equipped with a shotgun, much as the hawk with his long talons. I may or may not harvest an animal because unlike the hawk, it is not necessary for my survival. If I do happen to be blessed with taking an animal, I have no strengthened my bond with nature. I understand the cycle. I appreciate the life.
--- ---- --- -- -- -
So I watch as soccer moms and seasoned BBQers fill their carts with beef. Treated like shit. Perhaps dressed before the life has even left them. Their cries are ignored. Back in my tree, I aim my well sighted gun towards the shoulder, and with one quick pull, it is over. The animal has been killed. Its distant relative the beef cow is still being dressed alive in a dank slaughterhouse. I am proud for having spared pain. I understand the way nature works, and I believe more so than anyone in opposition to hunting. Those in opposition cringe at my bloodstained gloves. I smile back at them and loathe them for placing themselves above the animals. They claim that animals are as important as they are. If not more...Yet they raise themselves on a pedastal and refuse to take part in the most natural and the most infinite cycle. Life and death. Nature. Excuse my muddled thoughts. I had a lot to say and much more.

We here in Tennessee just wait for the vultures to fly around in circles then we know dinner is waiting fer us somewhere along side the road with some good'ol fashion hillbilly roadkill. Possum pie!!!
I like how these animal rights folks and those who hate hunting sit there and say "I could never kill an animal. I value them just as much as myself. They are equal to humans. Humans are not better than animals." I've heard this said many times. I laugh at it usually. Clearly these humans are too good to partake in the most brilliant intimacy of nature. I can't wait til someone says "no. I think animals are above us. that's why I wouldn't hunt." That's also laughable. I hate to generalize, but no human in their core believes this. I challenge these people to spare their live so that I will not shoot a deer next year. No takers? Another laugh for me...
It gives me an exuse to shoot my gun.
Forget I said those last two entries. I was being overly defensive.
Yes you were a bit. No need, because I wasn't trying to target you.

You're wrong, though. I do not place myself above animals or put them on a pedestal. I'm as much aware of the abundance and beauty of nature as you are, but I don't feel the need to dominate nature to be in harmony with it, whereas you do, or say you do. That's the main difference. I grew up with nature all around me, it's in my blood too, but I would never kill unless out of absolute necessity. I don't condemn you for killing wild animals, but just can't understand why you would want to, especially for sport.

And I wish you had answered my question. It was a straight question.
by zig [+]

Girls only like guys with great skills, like bowhunting skills, computer hacking skills, numchuck skills... Nate has great skills.

I think some people hunt to keep proficient at it just in case... it's like instinct and some people can overcome that while others can't. Just getting to the point of setting up a good shot is good enough for many people so that they don't have to shoot (like fishermen with a catch and release).

ZIG: I just looked back over my notes to check. It is actually 3% who are considered dominionistic. There is an even lesser category called "scientistic" which comprises less that 1% of the population and is a completely detached and objective view.
Bloody good discussion though, thanks... No pun intended. ;)
by zig [+]

There is flip side to this question towards the anti hunters.Would you rather one more cow or 50 chickens be brought into this world only to live in cramped and questionable conditions?
The actual kill is but a small part of the overall experience of the hunt, the wilderness, the pursuit, the comradrie, reading the deer sign and finding the deer, the remoteness and a thousand other things that make a full trip, It is not something that the average person, who has not pursued this sport, will ever understand..
*not* the average person, I hope. I strive not to be, anyway.

robotthinker: Modern farming methods are despicable, I agree.

by zig [+] are far from average, no doubt in my mind about that..:)
Zig,the point of my question remains unanswered.It wasn't just a question,it was a point.Do you agree with it?
robotthinker: I would rather we stopped exploiting animals altogether unless we are prepared to farm them ourselves in natural and humane conditions, so the answer is negative.
(This ballot makes me want to become a herbivore again.)
by zig [+]

Pleasure Zig..
Zig,let me see if I understand you.You would rather the practice of meat eating cease to exist.Since you know that this will not be the case any time soon or likely ever and that by answering no I assume that you condone hunting so long as the meat is used in place of "farmed" meat which you concider to be worse due to what you concider inhumane conditions in which the animals are raised.Did I get that right?If that be the case then you do in fact condone most hunting (barring the use of traps I assume) because most people that hunt do just that.Typically they store and distribute the meat to friends which in the case of a buck leaves a long lasting surplus of food.The next step then is to sign up for your NRA membership so you can effectively support this lesser of two evils in reguards to your new position on hunting.
robotthinker: I would rather the practice of eating meat to cease for ME, that's all. Which is probably where I'm headed. I was vegetarian for 7 years before, but lasagna got the better of me, lol. No, I don't think people should stop eating meat if that isn't their choice. I just hate the conditions of mass production methods of farming and wish it could be a bit (a lot) more humane. As for hunting, I just wish it wasn't a sport. Hunting for actual survival? Sure, I see nothing wrong with that and if necessary I would shoot something for dinner if my family was actually starving.
by zig [+]

You know, I never really considered vegetarians to bee altogether withit, but after a class on environmental biology, with the exponential growth of the global population, it makes sense for more of us to eat lower on the food chain. We don't need a burger every day, or a steak every night. Yes, we ARE free to have these things, but I think the conscious denial of these foods (which I DO enjoy) is a great moral position to take. By eating lower on the food chain, there will be more food available to feed the hungry. Grains take a LOT less energy to produce than, say a chicken, or a cow.

As for farming animals, I agree it is a terribly inhumane practice, but if not for farms, I feel that many of these animals would likely be hunted out of existence. There are different kinds of hunters. Most American hunters today are also conservationists (but they also vote for Bush--a paradigm I'll never understand). In order to enjoy the ability to hunt, we have to protect the environment and ensure no species are hunted to extinction. Thus saith TheDoof.

Quit being so overanalytic. Not everyone like the same sport. Asking "what is the appeal of killing animals?" is like asking what's so exciting with putting a ball in a net ? What's so fun with a bunch of horses running ? What's so fun in killing each other virtually in videogames ?

You could also make the same bellitling comments about virtually any player. In all games the goal is domination (even if it's in good terms or w/e the expression is). When you win at a sport or any type of game. You feel the pleasure of being the best even if the involved skills are not very useful otherwise.

Just accept hunting as a game. Killing animals isn't that big of a deal. I'm not a hunter but i think they're superior in that they turn food, something most people force themselves to view as strictly vital, a consummer thing into a real activity. They're more in harmony with life/nature than us consummers. Not that I care anyway.

Yes I totally agree with you Zig.Fox hunting in Britain bear hunting in Alaska.I mean why?

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